Discussion:
Gambas
(too old to reply)
George Birbilis
2006-11-30 21:16:11 UTC
Permalink
http://gambas.sourceforge.net/

Maybe Lazarus can copy some stuff from that project?

----------------
George Birbilis (***@kagi.com)
Computer & Informatics Engineer
Microsoft MVP J# for 2004-2006
Borland "Spirit of Delphi"
++ QuickTime, Delphi, ActiveX, .NET components ++
http://www.kagi.com/birbilis
++ Robotics ++
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~Robotics
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~robgroup




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George Birbilis
2006-11-30 21:16:45 UTC
Permalink
Btw, got the url from
http://openubuntu.blogspot.com/2006/11/visual-development-of-linux.html
Post by George Birbilis
http://gambas.sourceforge.net/
Maybe Lazarus can copy some stuff from that project?
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Michael Van Canneyt
2006-11-30 21:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Birbilis
http://gambas.sourceforge.net/
Maybe Lazarus can copy some stuff from that project?
Why would we want to do that ? It'd have to be rewritten from scratch anyway.

Michael.
Flávio Etrusco
2006-11-30 22:04:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Van Canneyt
Post by George Birbilis
http://gambas.sourceforge.net/
Maybe Lazarus can copy some stuff from that project?
Why would we want to do that ? It'd have to be rewritten from scratch anyway.
Michael.
Michael is really a diplomat ;-)
This can only be trolling...
The languages are completely incompatible (and BTW VB is a crappy language).
Gambas is GTK-only whereas Lazarus is multiplatform and VCL-based.
So... huh?

-Flávio
Flávio Etrusco
2006-11-30 22:25:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Flávio Etrusco
The languages are completely incompatible (and BTW VB is a crappy language).
Gambas is GTK-only whereas Lazarus is multiplatform and VCL-based.
Geez, it's been so long since I last tried Gambas, I didn't remember
it was Qt-based and written in C++... This doesn't change a thing as
far as reuse in Lazarus is concerned, though.

-Flávio
George Birbilis
2006-11-30 23:13:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Van Canneyt
Post by George Birbilis
http://gambas.sourceforge.net/
Maybe Lazarus can copy some stuff from that project?
Why would we want to do that ? It'd have to be rewritten from
scratch anyway.
When I say copy, I also mean ideas, GUI design, etc. whatever people see
useful in that one

----------------
George Birbilis (***@kagi.com)
Computer & Informatics Engineer
Microsoft MVP J# for 2004-2006
Borland "Spirit of Delphi"
++ QuickTime, Delphi, ActiveX, .NET components ++
http://www.kagi.com/birbilis
++ Robotics ++
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~Robotics
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~robgroup




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Michael Van Canneyt
2006-11-30 23:40:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Birbilis
Post by Michael Van Canneyt
Post by George Birbilis
http://gambas.sourceforge.net/
Maybe Lazarus can copy some stuff from that project?
Why would we want to do that ? It'd have to be rewritten from
scratch anyway.
When I say copy, I also mean ideas, GUI design, etc. whatever people see
useful in that one
I see what you mean.
Well, I haven't actually used it, but judging from the articles I read about
it (2 to be exact), Lazarus has more to offer. I can of course be wrong.

Michael.
Al Boldi
2006-12-01 14:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Van Canneyt
Post by George Birbilis
Post by Michael Van Canneyt
Post by George Birbilis
http://gambas.sourceforge.net/
Maybe Lazarus can copy some stuff from that project?
Why would we want to do that ? It'd have to be rewritten from
scratch anyway.
When I say copy, I also mean ideas, GUI design, etc. whatever people see
useful in that one
I see what you mean.
Well, I haven't actually used it, but judging from the articles I read
about it (2 to be exact), Lazarus has more to offer. I can of course be
wrong.
I tried it. Don't waste your time, we are way ahead...


Thanks!

--
Al
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
2006-11-30 23:54:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Birbilis
Maybe Lazarus can copy some stuff from that project?
There are hundreds of other open source IDEs, we are all already aware of that.

If you have some specific need Lazarus does not attend, or something
that it could attend better, and Ganbas does it, then we can talk
about this specific feature. And even then, consulting how several
other projects solve the problem would be better then looking at only
one other project.
--
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
George Birbilis
2006-12-01 13:12:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
Post by George Birbilis
Maybe Lazarus can copy some stuff from that project?
There are hundreds of other open source IDEs, we are all
already aware of that.
If you have some specific need Lazarus does not attend, or
something that it could attend better, and Ganbas does it,
then we can talk about this specific feature. And even then,
consulting how several other projects solve the problem would
be better then looking at only one other project.
The page I found it mentioned was one that was speaking of Visual
Development on Linux (compared to VB on Windows) and didn't mention Lazarus
at all (only some replies to that topic mentioned it, but they forgot to
post a URL). From the image they had there about Gambas it looked more
appealing than Lazarus (for example when you launch Lazarus [if you don't
tell it to open something], is there option to autostart with the File/New
dialog? [that should be the default option and have checkbox to not show
that at start again]).

What I mean is that Pascal is almost as easy as Basic to use (apart from
VB's With and Case which are better in my opinion, or ForEach which is
missing), and isn't case-sensitive as C/C++/Java/C#/etc. and is
natural-language friendly (not have to learn some strange symbols and how to
put them together to author a program as in some well-known scripting
languages), so it's either that Lazarus is missing some IDE touches to make
it more appealing to newcomers, or that it needs more/better PR (e.g. try to
post nice screenshots of it to such net discussions that newbies [esp.
interested in university students] may come across while searching for what
IDE to use)





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Pieter Valentijn
2006-12-01 13:52:14 UTC
Permalink
So you say its all about marketing?
I run a opensource Accounting project and I have the same problem try to
attract as manny new user as you can meens you need to market it for
that user group. I gess writing to all universities we can get a email
adres from is a start but calling someone in your local area is probably
the most effective. On call to the right person can set things in
motion. I think Lazarus is the best choice for students. But we will
need to reache the tutors for that to happen so they can point to the
right directions (the Lazarus site :-).

Met vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Valentijn

Delphidreams
http://www.delphidreams.nl



-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: George Birbilis [mailto:***@kagi.com]
Verzonden: vrijdag 1 december 2006 14:13
Aan: ***@miraclec.com
Onderwerp: RE: [lazarus] Gambas
Post by Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
Post by George Birbilis
Maybe Lazarus can copy some stuff from that project?
There are hundreds of other open source IDEs, we are all already aware
of that.
If you have some specific need Lazarus does not attend, or something
that it could attend better, and Ganbas does it, then we can talk
about this specific feature. And even then, consulting how several
other projects solve the problem would be better then looking at only
one other project.
The page I found it mentioned was one that was speaking of Visual
Development on Linux (compared to VB on Windows) and didn't mention
Lazarus at all (only some replies to that topic mentioned it, but they
forgot to post a URL). From the image they had there about Gambas it
looked more appealing than Lazarus (for example when you launch Lazarus
[if you don't tell it to open something], is there option to autostart
with the File/New dialog? [that should be the default option and have
checkbox to not show that at start again]).

What I mean is that Pascal is almost as easy as Basic to use (apart from
VB's With and Case which are better in my opinion, or ForEach which is
missing), and isn't case-sensitive as C/C++/Java/C#/etc. and is
natural-language friendly (not have to learn some strange symbols and
how to put them together to author a program as in some well-known
scripting languages), so it's either that Lazarus is missing some IDE
touches to make it more appealing to newcomers, or that it needs
more/better PR (e.g. try to post nice screenshots of it to such net
discussions that newbies [esp. interested in university students] may
come across while searching for what IDE to use)





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Graeme Geldenhuys
2006-12-02 07:31:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pieter Valentijn
So you say its all about marketing?
I run a opensource Accounting project and I have the same problem try to
Is that Accounting app written with Free Pascal/Lazarus? I am
considering (not sure if it is viable yet) writing a specialized
commercial accounting package in Lazarus. By viable, I don't mean
Lazarus, I mean do I have a market for an accounting package.
Accounting is a very cutthroat market.
--
Graeme Geldenhuys
Location: S 34° 03.168' E018° 49.342'
http://tinyurl.com/y6lc26

There's no place like 127.0.0.1
Michael Van Canneyt
2006-12-02 13:01:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Post by Pieter Valentijn
So you say its all about marketing?
I run a opensource Accounting project and I have the same problem try to
Is that Accounting app written with Free Pascal/Lazarus? I am
considering (not sure if it is viable yet) writing a specialized
commercial accounting package in Lazarus. By viable, I don't mean
Lazarus, I mean do I have a market for an accounting package.
Accounting is a very cutthroat market.
If it's about osFinancials (the former TurboCash):

It was written using Delphi. Once there was a call for people to demonstrate
the feasability of creating a Lazarus port, but I don't know what came from
it (my guess is that this may be one of the things that caused the split
from TurboCash and osFinancials?)

I think it should be very possible to port it to lazarus. But as usual, time
is probably the issue.

Michael.
Graeme Geldenhuys
2006-12-02 14:05:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Van Canneyt
I think it should be very possible to port it to lazarus. But as usual, time
is probably the issue.
I don't like TurboCash at all, and wasn't going to use that. I'm not a
fan of web based products either! I want to start from scratch.
Completely based on OOP for a start and unit tested from every
possible angle. I worked at a company in the UK and helped develop a
very complex accounting system. Unfortunately it was a nightmare to
maintain and it had code inside forms, used global variable and tide
specific to MS SQL Server. Not the route I want to follow, though
would like to use some of their ideas and other ideas from BS/1
Accounting.
--
Graeme Geldenhuys
Location: S 34° 03.168' E018° 49.342'
http://tinyurl.com/y6lc26

There's no place like 127.0.0.1
Michael Van Canneyt
2006-12-02 14:17:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Post by Michael Van Canneyt
I think it should be very possible to port it to lazarus. But as usual, time
is probably the issue.
I don't like TurboCash at all, and wasn't going to use that. I'm not a
fan of web based products either! I want to start from scratch.
Completely based on OOP for a start and unit tested from every
possible angle. I worked at a company in the UK and helped develop a
very complex accounting system. Unfortunately it was a nightmare to
maintain and it had code inside forms, used global variable and tide
specific to MS SQL Server. Not the route I want to follow, though
would like to use some of their ideas and other ideas from BS/1
Accounting.
I'll be very interested in seeing what you come up with,
because at my company we create an accounting system as well :-)

Michael.
Graeme Geldenhuys
2006-12-02 15:22:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Van Canneyt
I'll be very interested in seeing what you come up with,
because at my company we create an accounting system as well :-)
See what I mean with a cut-throat market! :-)
--
Graeme Geldenhuys
Location: S 34° 03.168' E018° 49.342'
http://tinyurl.com/y6lc26

There's no place like 127.0.0.1
Michael Van Canneyt
2006-12-02 15:36:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Post by Michael Van Canneyt
I'll be very interested in seeing what you come up with,
because at my company we create an accounting system as well :-)
See what I mean with a cut-throat market! :-)
Absolutely :-)

You're in South africa, right ?
Excellent market for a dutch-speaking company, so beware ;-)

Michael.
Graeme Geldenhuys
2006-12-02 15:55:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Van Canneyt
You're in South africa, right ?
Yup.
Post by Michael Van Canneyt
Excellent market for a dutch-speaking company, so beware ;-)
hehe.... :)
--
Graeme Geldenhuys
Location: S 34° 03.168' E018° 49.342'
http://tinyurl.com/y6lc26

There's no place like 127.0.0.1
Dean Zobec
2006-12-02 21:33:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Post by Michael Van Canneyt
I think it should be very possible to port it to lazarus. But as usual, time
is probably the issue.
I don't like TurboCash at all, and wasn't going to use that. I'm not a
fan of web based products either! I want to start from scratch.
Completely based on OOP for a start and unit tested from every
possible angle. I worked at a company in the UK and helped develop a
very complex accounting system. Unfortunately it was a nightmare to
maintain and it had code inside forms, used global variable and tide
specific to MS SQL Server. Not the route I want to follow, though
would like to use some of their ideas and other ideas from BS/1
Accounting.
It happens that I have a strong background in accounting, should you
need help. A couple of years ago I was responsible for the accounting of
a middle sized firm (something about 10000 transactions a day) and for
the cost management. There was a lot of transactions in foreign
currencies so I gained a lot of experience in that field. The problem I
see with an accounting program is the fact that at lower level it has to
couple with different laws and forms of taxation, so the greatest work
is to build a flexible system that can be easily adopted to the single
nation's legislation. I was investigating about innovative ways of
handling the business transactions and double entry bookkeeping to
discover new ways of doing old stuff and be more efficient (we have
computers now, it's stupid to do the same thing that Luca Pacioli did in
Medieval times). Very interesting field, but at the end you have to
couple with the problems and details of the local legislation, and that
really put me off (hope the EU will do more standardisation in the future).
You are right however, oop is the way to go and build a strong framework
of business classes, combined with an OPF and a good solution to link
the business classes to the UI. I've seen a lot of bad code written in
Delphi, no tests and validations that were mixed directly with the UI
code, completely unmaintainable.

Ciao, Dean
Graeme Geldenhuys
2006-12-03 09:37:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dean Zobec
see with an accounting program is the fact that at lower level it has to
couple with different laws and forms of taxation, so the greatest work
is to build a flexible system that can be easily adopted to the single
This is where a good dose of design patterns come into play. I
better dust of my Gang-of-Four book. Oh and for those interested, try
the "Head First Design Patterns" book. Very different style, but
excellent.
Post by Dean Zobec
You are right however, oop is the way to go and build a strong framework
of business classes, combined with an OPF and a good solution to link
the business classes to the UI. I've seen a lot of bad code written in
Delphi, no tests and validations that were mixed directly with the UI
code, completely unmaintainable.
Yeah, I once had to maintain the Capacity Planning section of that UK
accounting package. It has been through the hands of quite a few
developers over the years and each developer seems to have decided to
apply their own style of coding. I was quite surprised to find a
section actually using OOP and it was a breeze to extend compared to
the rest of the system.
--
Graeme Geldenhuys
Location: S 34° 03.168' E018° 49.342'
http://tinyurl.com/y6lc26

There's no place like 127.0.0.1
Dean Zobec
2006-12-03 11:04:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Post by Dean Zobec
see with an accounting program is the fact that at lower level it has to
couple with different laws and forms of taxation, so the greatest work
is to build a flexible system that can be easily adopted to the single
This is where a good dose of design patterns come into play. I
better dust of my Gang-of-Four book. Oh and for those interested, try
the "Head First Design Patterns" book. Very different style, but
excellent.
Or something more specific: http://www.martinfowler.com/articles.html#ap
and the book full of still valid good ideas:
Analysis Patterns: Reusable Object Models (The Addison-Wesley Object
Technology Series) by Martin Fowler

Ciao,
Dean
Al Boldi
2006-12-03 11:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Post by Dean Zobec
see with an accounting program is the fact that at lower level it has to
couple with different laws and forms of taxation, so the greatest work
is to build a flexible system that can be easily adopted to the single
This is where a good dose of design patterns come into play. I
better dust of my Gang-of-Four book. Oh and for those interested, try
the "Head First Design Patterns" book. Very different style, but
excellent.
Design Patterns won't help you introduce flexibility, they only help you put
structure into your design. So the key here is abstraction rather than
patterns. TObject is a great example of abstraction to yield flexibility.


Thanks!

--
Al
Graeme Geldenhuys
2006-12-03 16:45:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Al Boldi
Design Patterns won't help you introduce flexibility, they only help you put
structure into your design. So the key here is abstraction rather than
patterns. TObject is a great example of abstraction to yield flexibility.
Not that this is the mailing list to discuss design patterns, but I
totally disagree with you statement about flexibility! Design
Patterns add flexibility and structure - obviously dependent on what
design patterns you use.

A few simple examples (only looking at Behavioral Patterns):

Iterator and Visitor:
The Visitor lets you apply some action to a object, combined with the
Iterator, you can run through a hierarchy of objects applying that
action. No need for the Visitor to know the inner details of the
hierarchy. That's flexible! For excellent examples of that, have a
look at the tiOPF Framework. tiOPF is built on this principal.

Mediator and Observer:
Combine those as I have done in the Model-GUI-Mediator and you can
make any Standard GUI component object-aware. Those mediator can be
reused on multiple forms without rewriting any code, compared to the
standard Delphi way one event handlers are writting inside forms and
have to be duplicated on every other form.

State pattern:
Write a CSV or XML parser using a State Machine. It is very flexible
and allows you to extend it, hook up event handlers while the parser
is in different states, etc. Again very flexible. I have posted my
CSV State Machine a few months back in the FPC mailing list.

The list goes on, but I think you get my point... :-) And again, I
haven't even touched on Creational or Structural Patterns.
--
Graeme Geldenhuys

There's no place like S34° 03.168' E018° 49.342'
Al Boldi
2006-12-03 19:19:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Post by Al Boldi
Design Patterns won't help you introduce flexibility, they only help you
put structure into your design. So the key here is abstraction rather
than patterns. TObject is a great example of abstraction to yield
flexibility.
Not that this is the mailing list to discuss design patterns, but I
totally disagree with you statement about flexibility! Design
Patterns add flexibility and structure - obviously dependent on what
design patterns you use.
The Visitor lets you apply some action to a object, combined with the
Iterator, you can run through a hierarchy of objects applying that
action. No need for the Visitor to know the inner details of the
hierarchy. That's flexible! For excellent examples of that, have a
look at the tiOPF Framework. tiOPF is built on this principal.
Combine those as I have done in the Model-GUI-Mediator and you can
make any Standard GUI component object-aware. Those mediator can be
reused on multiple forms without rewriting any code, compared to the
standard Delphi way one event handlers are writting inside forms and
have to be duplicated on every other form.
Write a CSV or XML parser using a State Machine. It is very flexible
and allows you to extend it, hook up event handlers while the parser
is in different states, etc. Again very flexible. I have posted my
CSV State Machine a few months back in the FPC mailing list.
The list goes on, but I think you get my point... :-) And again, I
haven't even touched on Creational or Structural Patterns.
Thanks for the superb examples, and I agree with you somewhat, but Design
Patterns don't implement anything, they only invoke code in some structured
way. So the flexibility/ reusability/ maintainability is really dependent
on the underlying code. Once this is sufficiently abstracted, you could
just plug-and-play any Design Pattern.

But still, your examples are great; can you give some links?


Thanks!

--
Al
Graeme Geldenhuys
2006-12-03 22:00:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Al Boldi
But still, your examples are great; can you give some links?
Iterator, Visitor, Composite, Factory Method, Singleton and many more...
Code for tiOPF:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/tiopf
Model-GUI-Mediator code:
As above, but in the Demos repository.
Website:
http://www.techinsite.com.au/tiopf/
Post by Al Boldi
Write a CSV or XML parser using a State Machine. It is very flexible
I can email you a copy. Michael or somebody else asked if they could
use it somewhere in FPC. Not sure if that actually happened.
--
Graeme Geldenhuys

There's no place like S34° 03.168' E018° 49.342'
Cesar Romero
2006-12-04 04:12:05 UTC
Permalink
Hi Graeme,
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Write a CSV or XML parser using a State Machine. It is very flexible
I can email you a copy. Michael or somebody else asked if they could
use it somewhere in FPC. Not sure if that actually happened.
I need to implement a 'XMLMechanism' is Jazz OPF Framework.
VTF already suports Stream, so I think that the shortcut to implement
this mechanism is convert stream to mechanism.
How the XMLMechanism is implemented in tiOPF, is somethink like that?
Is that parser that you mention used for that?

Thank you in advance,

Cesar Romero
http://jazz.liws.com.br
Graeme Geldenhuys
2006-12-04 07:23:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cesar Romero
How the XMLMechanism is implemented in tiOPF, is somethink like that?
Is that parser that you mention used for that?
tiOPF uses it's own xml, csv and tab parser. I have thought of
integrating mine, but first need to see the implications (their is
quite a few commercial apps written against tiOPF). Also I still need
to do speed tests against mine and the tiOPF's one.

As for the XML persistence layer, there is two. I'm not very familiar
with the XML persistence layers, but I know the following. One uses
the Microsoft XML library (MSXMLDOM), which is dog slow!! The other is
a custom written one called XMLLight, written in Object Pascal. See
the unit test timing results for why I say the MSXMLDOM is slow:

[Delphi 7 XML]
CreateTable=41.57
DropTableTable=39.91
ReadMetaData=0.28
InsertRow=40.21
UpdateRow=40.64
DeleteRow=39.03

[Delphi 7 XMLLight]
CreateTable=2.31
DropTableTable=1.95
ReadMetaData=0.00
InsertRow=2.19
UpdateRow=2.09
DeleteRow=2.13


For more information or the code, you can get it from SourceForge.net.
tiOPF project.
Location
tiOPF2/Source/Core/tiXML.pas
tiOPF2/Source/Options/tiQueryXML.pas
tiOPF2/Source/Options/tiQueryXMLLight.pas
--
Graeme Geldenhuys

There's no place like S34° 03.168' E018° 49.342'
Al Boldi
2006-12-04 18:21:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Post by Al Boldi
But still, your examples are great; can you give some links?
Iterator, Visitor, Composite, Factory Method, Singleton and many
http://sourceforge.net/projects/tiopf
As above, but in the Demos repository.
http://www.techinsite.com.au/tiopf/
Post by Al Boldi
Write a CSV or XML parser using a State Machine. It is very flexible
I can email you a copy. Michael or somebody else asked if they could
use it somewhere in FPC. Not sure if that actually happened.
Thanks for the links!

I had a quick tour and found the tiOPF approach similar to BOLD. The problem
here is that the abstraction is pattern driven, which leads to a rigid
structure bound by the pattern chosen. I guess the idea here is to push
coders into a framework that forces them to abstract, much the same way
building-architects are faced with builders and workers. Only, the
difference here is that we are not dealing with concrete buildings.

So, trying to reduce the virtuality of programmed architectures to the
semantic of a concrete building is probably misplaced, unless you are faced
with a workforce that doesn't know any better.

What is needed is a framework that takes advantage of the virtual nature of
programming, by allowing fluidity/morphability via abstraction.

Do you know of any such framework?


Thanks!

--
Al
Graeme Geldenhuys
2006-12-04 21:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Al Boldi
here is that the abstraction is pattern driven, which leads to a rigid
structure bound by the pattern chosen. I guess the idea here is to push
coders into a framework that forces them to abstract, much the same way
Maybe we read the code differently. :-) I find tiOPF very flexible in
many different area and for many different projects. Yes the tiOPF
uses a lot of design patterns and yes most functionality is based on
the Visitor pattern, but that is exactly what I like about it. The
Visitor pattern combined with the Iterator gives you such a lot of
power, and is ideal on a hierarchy of objects and that is how most
data gets presented anyway (for example: Treeview component and
Relational databases). Why more OPF's don't follow this route, I got
no idea! tiOPF must be doing something right though, seeing that it
has been in active development for just under 10 years now.
Post by Al Boldi
Do you know of any such framework?
There are not many other publicly available OPF frameworks written in
Object Pascal.
--
Graeme Geldenhuys

There's no place like S34° 03.168' E018° 49.342'
Cesar Romero
2006-12-05 00:19:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Post by Al Boldi
Do you know of any such framework?
There are not many other publicly available OPF frameworks written in
Object Pascal.
http://code.google.com/p/jazz-sdk/source
www.liws.com.br/wiki/English.php


[]s

Cesar Romero
Samuel Cartaxo
2006-12-05 12:15:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Al Boldi
Do you know of any such framework?
You may take a look at Instant Objects (http://www.instantobjects.org/).

It is free open source and a great persistence framework. I performed a
comparison between InstantObjects and tiOPF a little time ago, just to make
a choice about which to use in my projects, and found that IO is beyond
comparison. I found it to be more powerful and easier than tiOPF, by far.

Samuel
Post by Al Boldi
Post by Al Boldi
here is that the abstraction is pattern driven, which leads to a rigid
structure bound by the pattern chosen. I guess the idea here is to push
coders into a framework that forces them to abstract, much the same way
Maybe we read the code differently. :-) I find tiOPF very flexible in
many different area and for many different projects. Yes the tiOPF
uses a lot of design patterns and yes most functionality is based on
the Visitor pattern, but that is exactly what I like about it. The
Visitor pattern combined with the Iterator gives you such a lot of
power, and is ideal on a hierarchy of objects and that is how most
data gets presented anyway (for example: Treeview component and
Relational databases). Why more OPF's don't follow this route, I got
no idea! tiOPF must be doing something right though, seeing that it
has been in active development for just under 10 years now.
Post by Al Boldi
Do you know of any such framework?
There are not many other publicly available OPF frameworks written in
Object Pascal.
--
Graeme Geldenhuys
There's no place like S34° 03.168' E018° 49.342'
_________________________________________________________________
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Graeme Geldenhuys
2006-12-05 12:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Samuel Cartaxo
a choice about which to use in my projects, and found that IO is beyond
comparison. I found it to be more powerful and easier than tiOPF, by far.
I think that's a matter of opinion, but you are entitled to yours. :-)
I guess it all depends on what you want to do, how complex you
business model is and how well you know the OPF framework.
--
Graeme Geldenhuys

There's no place like S34° 03.168' E018° 49.342'
George Birbilis
2006-12-07 21:18:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
This is where a good dose of design patterns come into play. I
better dust of my Gang-of-Four book. Oh and for those
interested, try the "Head First Design Patterns" book. Very
different style, but excellent.
See the table at the bottom of the page:
http://www.dofactory.com/Patterns/Patterns.aspx
Click each one to see a diagram (UML it was if I remember well) of each
pattern

Ignore any code (it's for VB.net and C#) or adapt to Object Pascal
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Post by Dean Zobec
You are right however, oop is the way to go and build a strong
framework of business classes, combined with an OPF and a good
solution to link the business classes to the UI. I've seen a lot of
bad code written in Delphi, no tests and validations that
were mixed
Post by Dean Zobec
directly with the UI code, completely unmaintainable.
Yeah, I once had to maintain the Capacity Planning section of
that UK accounting package. It has been through the hands of
quite a few developers over the years and each developer
seems to have decided to apply their own style of coding. I
was quite surprised to find a section actually using OOP and
it was a breeze to extend compared to the rest of the system.
Speaking of coding style etc., Architect version of IDEs like VS.net (see
VS.net Team System) have ways for an s/w architect to define coding styles,
templates etc. and force programmers to use those. Also there's a nice
powertoy download for VS.net 2005, called "Best Practices Analyzer" (it's
similar to database best practice analyzer tool that MS have), would be nice
to have such a thing in the IDE (if it's easily configurable [or at least
programmable] to add more checks for best practices)

----------------
George Birbilis (***@kagi.com)
Computer & Informatics Engineer
Microsoft MVP J# for 2004-2006
Borland "Spirit of Delphi"
++ QuickTime, Delphi, ActiveX, .NET components ++
http://www.kagi.com/birbilis
++ Robotics ++
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~Robotics
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~robgroup




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Pieter Valentijn
2006-12-04 00:57:55 UTC
Permalink
There is a sort of standard now (XBRL) I have viewed some of it today
and it defines in XML how to create a trail balance so anny other
program thar read XBRL can import it.

Met vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Valentijn

Delphidreams
http://www.delphidreams.nl



-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Dean Zobec [mailto:***@tin.it]
Verzonden: zaterdag 2 december 2006 22:33
Aan: ***@miraclec.com
Onderwerp: Re: [lazarus] Gambas
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Post by Michael Van Canneyt
I think it should be very possible to port it to lazarus. But as
usual, time is probably the issue.
I don't like TurboCash at all, and wasn't going to use that. I'm not a
fan of web based products either! I want to start from scratch.
Completely based on OOP for a start and unit tested from every
possible angle. I worked at a company in the UK and helped develop a
very complex accounting system. Unfortunately it was a nightmare to
maintain and it had code inside forms, used global variable and tide
specific to MS SQL Server. Not the route I want to follow, though
would like to use some of their ideas and other ideas from BS/1
Accounting.
It happens that I have a strong background in accounting, should you
need help. A couple of years ago I was responsible for the accounting of
a middle sized firm (something about 10000 transactions a day) and for
the cost management. There was a lot of transactions in foreign
currencies so I gained a lot of experience in that field. The problem I
see with an accounting program is the fact that at lower level it has to
couple with different laws and forms of taxation, so the greatest work
is to build a flexible system that can be easily adopted to the single
nation's legislation. I was investigating about innovative ways of
handling the business transactions and double entry bookkeeping to
discover new ways of doing old stuff and be more efficient (we have
computers now, it's stupid to do the same thing that Luca Pacioli did in
Medieval times). Very interesting field, but at the end you have to
couple with the problems and details of the local legislation, and that
really put me off (hope the EU will do more standardisation in the
future). You are right however, oop is the way to go and build a strong
framework of business classes, combined with an OPF and a good solution
to link the business classes to the UI. I've seen a lot of bad code
written in Delphi, no tests and validations that were mixed directly
with the UI code, completely unmaintainable.

Ciao, Dean


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Pieter Valentijn
2006-12-04 00:54:43 UTC
Permalink
Theres still al lot of coding to do but I think im creating a good
usable accounting package. I have atleast turned the database to
Firebird and got the code to use transactions. There was a lot of code
bulld on TTable doing Atable.locate to get the right record. When doing
a multy user setup on a internet server this is not good :-) so I
changed most of it to selects using SQL.

But I still want to write out the Quickreports and all other commercial
components. So I gess I have my work cut out for me.


Met vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Valentijn

Delphidreams
http://www.delphidreams.nl



-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Graeme Geldenhuys [mailto:***@gmail.com]
Verzonden: zaterdag 2 december 2006 15:05
Aan: ***@miraclec.com
Onderwerp: Re: [lazarus] Gambas
Post by Michael Van Canneyt
I think it should be very possible to port it to lazarus. But as
usual, time is probably the issue.
I don't like TurboCash at all, and wasn't going to use that. I'm not a
fan of web based products either! I want to start from scratch.
Completely based on OOP for a start and unit tested from every possible
angle. I worked at a company in the UK and helped develop a very
complex accounting system. Unfortunately it was a nightmare to maintain
and it had code inside forms, used global variable and tide specific to
MS SQL Server. Not the route I want to follow, though would like to use
some of their ideas and other ideas from BS/1 Accounting.
--
Graeme Geldenhuys
Location: S 34° 03.168' E018° 49.342' http://tinyurl.com/y6lc26

There's no place like 127.0.0.1

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Pieter Valentijn
2006-12-04 00:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Yes the port can be done but it will jest be a lot of work.
I am turning all reports to reportman so that needs to be availeble on
Lazarus. It now compiles in Delphi 7 and you can create plugins in
Lazarus as we connect to Firebird. Do you have anny accounting skills ?
Else writing a package is not adviced. I can realy do with people
helping met cut the code in to modules so if theres anny takers :-0 That
request was a bit odd from Philip it just shows his technical knowledge.
I think osFinancials can oneday ron on Lazarus (that will be my end
goal) its just not now. Theres mutch structuring to be done in the code
to get a better reuseability. We do have a good solid accounting basis
and do stock control and cash register systems. Theres links with
osCommerce so you can import datat from the webshop and im currently
building a plugin for Vtiger so CRM package can be used to get account
details and sales (just like the webshop but for diverent markets). The
client data gets used a lot so I will use this alternative I wrote to
substitute that. Then we have the comercial components that still remain
in code. The most work will probebly be the grid (info power) as the
relay on the events that grid gives. I think redesiging them is the only
option for this but it will be a hell of a job with big impact. I need
to sigment the project and currently I use DLLs and fastmm4. Can Lazarus
do the same ? The DLL routines can have strings lager then 255 like this

type
TOSFMenuPlugin = function(AApplicationHandle:
Thandle;AConnection:TZConnection; InProcessFile,OutProcessFile :PChar) :
TModalresult ; stdcall ;

InProcessFile and OutProcessFile can be larger than 255

This would be the only real problem if I cant call DLL's created with
lazarus from a lazarus project.



Met vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Valentijn

Delphidreams
http://www.delphidreams.nl



-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: ***@home.wisa.be [mailto:***@home.wisa.be] Namens Michael
Van Canneyt
Verzonden: zaterdag 2 december 2006 14:02
Aan: ***@miraclec.com
Onderwerp: Re: [lazarus] Gambas
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Post by Pieter Valentijn
So you say its all about marketing?
I run a opensource Accounting project and I have the same problem try to
Is that Accounting app written with Free Pascal/Lazarus? I am
considering (not sure if it is viable yet) writing a specialized
commercial accounting package in Lazarus. By viable, I don't mean
Lazarus, I mean do I have a market for an accounting package.
Accounting is a very cutthroat market.
If it's about osFinancials (the former TurboCash):

It was written using Delphi. Once there was a call for people to
demonstrate the feasability of creating a Lazarus port, but I don't know
what came from it (my guess is that this may be one of the things that
caused the split
from TurboCash and osFinancials?)

I think it should be very possible to port it to lazarus. But as usual,
time is probably the issue.

Michael.

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George Birbilis
2006-12-07 21:11:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
I mean do I have a market for
an accounting package.
Accounting is a very cutthroat market.
You could have for a certain country if you specialize or make your s/w very
adaptable so that you can provide various versions for the different
logistics standards / laws out there (for example MS is now trying to get
into the Greek and the European market after they got Great Plains software,
not sure if they will succeed to get some market share). Also getting a
certification to allow it to be used officially in businesses is something
that might cost





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Pieter Valentijn
2006-12-08 14:36:50 UTC
Permalink
In my country theres no realy autorsation for accounting. Theres for
making payment slips and hooking up to PIN machines (Payment with a bank
card). I think this is the case in most countries.
All do the market is cuttroat the prices are still veryy high. Mostly
you are not there after purchasing a accounting package. You still need
someone to tell you how to use it.

Met vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Valentijn

Delphidreams
http://www.delphidreams.nl



-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: George Birbilis [mailto:***@kagi.com]
Verzonden: donderdag 7 december 2006 22:12
Aan: ***@miraclec.com
Onderwerp: RE: [lazarus] Gambas
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
I mean do I have a market for
an accounting package.
Accounting is a very cutthroat market.
You could have for a certain country if you specialize or make your s/w
very adaptable so that you can provide various versions for the
different logistics standards / laws out there (for example MS is now
trying to get into the Greek and the European market after they got
Great Plains software, not sure if they will succeed to get some market
share). Also getting a certification to allow it to be used officially
in businesses is something that might cost





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George Birbilis
2006-12-08 20:06:39 UTC
Permalink
In Greece if you want to print receipts to customers, the s/w has to be
certified by the state (it also has to print some special numeric codes so
that the don't have to get special triple-layer paper punched out by the tax
office)

Also, for medium and big bussinesses there is some law coming I've heard to
enforce certain international logistics standards that differ from the
current ones (needed esp. for companies that are in the stock exchange,
since local and foreign investors have to be able to read their published
info and be able to understand / compare it, plus allow the companies to
speculate less or hide things from the public)
Post by Pieter Valentijn
In my country theres no realy autorsation for accounting.
Theres for making payment slips and hooking up to PIN
machines (Payment with a bank card). I think this is the case
in most countries.
All do the market is cuttroat the prices are still veryy
high. Mostly you are not there after purchasing a accounting
package. You still need someone to tell you how to use it.
Met vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Valentijn
Delphidreams
http://www.delphidreams.nl
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Verzonden: donderdag 7 december 2006 22:12
Onderwerp: RE: [lazarus] Gambas
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
I mean do I have a market for
an accounting package.
Accounting is a very cutthroat market.
You could have for a certain country if you specialize or
make your s/w
very adaptable so that you can provide various versions for the
different logistics standards / laws out there (for example MS is now
trying to get into the Greek and the European market after they got
Great Plains software, not sure if they will succeed to get
some market
share). Also getting a certification to allow it to be used officially
in businesses is something that might cost
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Pieter Valentijn
2006-12-11 09:38:53 UTC
Permalink
I have been to greece and it seemd to me the cash registers (a part that
osFinancial handels to) are just plain standaard cash-registers. Are you
sure its certified ? Or is it a recommendation ?

The other stuff you talk about is XBRL. And if if cource accounting
standaards for stock (FIFO LIFO).
This is mainly about the current stock value.


http://www.xbrl.org/SpecRecommendations/

This allows (for instance) to export a trailbalance in a general format
than manny packages can read. Also E-billing etc is put in to this world
wide format. Still no need for me to get this all in to osF today. Most
of the stuff is just when you publish your companies data and that usaly
gets done by the accounting office. They can take a trail balance
(agragated data) and put that in to there package of choice that can
produce this data. (it's a verry expensive packages im sure ).

The details transactions on a ledger get less intresting when you are
talking about a report of the companies financial status. If cource
they must be right so to check it you can still go to the detail level.
B.t.w. osF has got a greek translation but it only works on a greek
windows (default codepage)

Met vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Valentijn

Delphidreams
http://www.delphidreams.nl



-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: George Birbilis [mailto:***@kagi.com]
Verzonden: vrijdag 8 december 2006 21:07
Aan: ***@miraclec.com
Onderwerp: RE: [lazarus] Gambas


In Greece if you want to print receipts to customers, the s/w has to be
certified by the state (it also has to print some special numeric codes
so that the don't have to get special triple-layer paper punched out by
the tax
office)

Also, for medium and big bussinesses there is some law coming I've heard
to enforce certain international logistics standards that differ from
the current ones (needed esp. for companies that are in the stock
exchange, since local and foreign investors have to be able to read
their published info and be able to understand / compare it, plus allow
the companies to speculate less or hide things from the public)
Post by Pieter Valentijn
In my country theres no realy autorsation for accounting. Theres for
making payment slips and hooking up to PIN machines (Payment with a
bank card). I think this is the case in most countries.
All do the market is cuttroat the prices are still veryy
high. Mostly you are not there after purchasing a accounting
package. You still need someone to tell you how to use it.
Met vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Valentijn
Delphidreams
http://www.delphidreams.nl
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Verzonden: donderdag 7 december 2006 22:12
Onderwerp: RE: [lazarus] Gambas
Post by Graeme Geldenhuys
I mean do I have a market for
an accounting package.
Accounting is a very cutthroat market.
You could have for a certain country if you specialize or make your
s/w very adaptable so that you can provide various versions for the
different logistics standards / laws out there (for example MS is now
trying to get into the Greek and the European market after they got
Great Plains software, not sure if they will succeed to get
some market
share). Also getting a certification to allow it to be used officially
in businesses is something that might cost
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George Birbilis
2006-12-11 19:26:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pieter Valentijn
I have been to greece and it seemd to me the cash registers
(a part that osFinancial handels to) are just plain standaard
cash-registers. Are you sure its certified ? Or is it a
recommendation ?
For many years now they can replace the cash register machines (those have
special license and are sealed by the tax authorities) with computers. They
needed special triple-print paper punched though by the tax authorities but
now they can choose to use special accounting software that is certified and
prints certain numbers at the bottom of each normal A4 or whatever other
paper format receipt. The s/w then can create a disk with the receipt data
regularly and they give it to the tax authorities (maybe some s/w can also
upload the info online to the tax authorities or periodically connect and
upload when needed). All such stuff is specified by the project TAXIS (see
www.taxisnet.gr [Greek], also see www.gsis.gr [General Secretariat of
Information Systems - Greek Ministry of Finance - they should have an
english page - can find ministries' pages from www.goverment.gr and
www.parliament.gr links])
Post by Pieter Valentijn
B.t.w. osF has got a greek translation but it only works on a
greek windows (default codepage)
At the regional settings on the control panel, there's selection of the
current locale but also and Advanced button where you select the default
language for non-Unicode programs. Maybe you need to set Greek there
(classic problem with non-Unicode s/w running on English windows in Greece,
some people see garbage fonts and wonder why cause that option is a bit
hidden in Windows).

Also you can get Greek MUI (Multi-User Interface) and install it over
English Windows and then at the regional settings appears an extra option
where you can select the OS default language to be Greek in order to see the
OS menus in Greek. Some s/w like Office (and some other third-party s/w)
respect that option and whether they use MUI technology (only MS s/w use
that for now, not yet public technology from what I know) or not, they can
show their own menus etc. in the OS default language then (irrespective of
the regional options settings - user can still have currency etc. in English
or other locale if they wish). I'm not sure which API call (or registry
setting) allows you to find the OS default language, neither of which shell
notification is there (there should be some) to inform a running program
that the OS default/menu language has been changed to update its guy on the
fly

----------------
George Birbilis (***@kagi.com)
Computer & Informatics Engineer
Microsoft MVP J# for 2004-2006
Borland "Spirit of Delphi"
++ QuickTime, Delphi, ActiveX, .NET components ++
http://www.kagi.com/birbilis
++ Robotics ++
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~Robotics
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~robgroup




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Pieter Valentijn
2006-12-12 18:15:52 UTC
Permalink
Wow you government wants to keep a good hold on things.
What about people that still use paper ? (we still have theme here).

A standard 1 person buisnis here just hase a Atlanta form (preprinted
papper) where he writes down his invoices and a Cash book. They gather
all bills in a shoe-box and then hand this over to there accountant for
processing. I think about 30% works like this.



Met vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Valentijn

Delphidreams
http://www.delphidreams.nl



-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: George Birbilis [mailto:***@kagi.com]
Verzonden: maandag 11 december 2006 20:27
Aan: ***@miraclec.com
Onderwerp: RE: [lazarus] Gambas
Post by Pieter Valentijn
I have been to greece and it seemd to me the cash registers (a part
that osFinancial handels to) are just plain standaard cash-registers.
Are you sure its certified ? Or is it a recommendation ?
For many years now they can replace the cash register machines (those
have special license and are sealed by the tax authorities) with
computers. They needed special triple-print paper punched though by the
tax authorities but now they can choose to use special accounting
software that is certified and prints certain numbers at the bottom of
each normal A4 or whatever other paper format receipt. The s/w then can
create a disk with the receipt data regularly and they give it to the
tax authorities (maybe some s/w can also upload the info online to the
tax authorities or periodically connect and upload when needed). All
such stuff is specified by the project TAXIS (see www.taxisnet.gr
[Greek], also see www.gsis.gr [General Secretariat of Information
Systems - Greek Ministry of Finance - they should have an english page -
can find ministries' pages from www.goverment.gr and www.parliament.gr
links])
Post by Pieter Valentijn
B.t.w. osF has got a greek translation but it only works on a greek
windows (default codepage)
At the regional settings on the control panel, there's selection of the
current locale but also and Advanced button where you select the default
language for non-Unicode programs. Maybe you need to set Greek there
(classic problem with non-Unicode s/w running on English windows in
Greece, some people see garbage fonts and wonder why cause that option
is a bit hidden in Windows).

Also you can get Greek MUI (Multi-User Interface) and install it over
English Windows and then at the regional settings appears an extra
option where you can select the OS default language to be Greek in order
to see the OS menus in Greek. Some s/w like Office (and some other
third-party s/w) respect that option and whether they use MUI technology
(only MS s/w use that for now, not yet public technology from what I
know) or not, they can show their own menus etc. in the OS default
language then (irrespective of the regional options settings - user can
still have currency etc. in English or other locale if they wish). I'm
not sure which API call (or registry
setting) allows you to find the OS default language, neither of which
shell notification is there (there should be some) to inform a running
program that the OS default/menu language has been changed to update its
guy on the fly

----------------
George Birbilis (***@kagi.com)
Computer & Informatics Engineer
Microsoft MVP J# for 2004-2006
Borland "Spirit of Delphi"
++ QuickTime, Delphi, ActiveX, .NET components ++
http://www.kagi.com/birbilis
++ Robotics ++
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~Robotics
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~robgroup




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_________________________________________________________________
To unsubscribe: mail lazarus-***@miraclec.com with
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George Birbilis
2006-12-12 20:56:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pieter Valentijn
Wow you government wants to keep a good hold on things.
What about people that still use paper ? (we still have theme here).
Has to be double or triple-print paper, that you take to the tax authorities
office, you stamp each page (!@#!@#!@#) with your details (or buy special
paper with the details preprinted) and then they punch through a special
code at the whole block of pages, sometimes making it hard to fill-in the
text cause the paper has lots of holes at some tight space fields. Other
times, your details haven't been stamped clearly at some pages and you have
to invalidate those page pairs/triplets and make sure you don't lose one
cause they'll consider it cheating etc.

Here, they treat you as a crook and you pay heavy fines (with lots of
interest per year) for each error you do in keeping your books, but when
they owe you money due to their mistake they don't give you any interest for
the time passed (I think this recently changed, but I might be wrong)

----------------
George Birbilis (***@kagi.com)
Computer & Informatics Engineer
Microsoft MVP J# for 2004-2006
Borland "Spirit of Delphi"
++ QuickTime, Delphi, ActiveX, .NET components ++
http://www.kagi.com/birbilis
++ Robotics ++
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~Robotics
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~robgroup




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George Birbilis
2006-12-11 19:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pieter Valentijn
The other stuff you talk about is XBRL. And if if cource
accounting standaards for stock (FIFO LIFO).
This is mainly about the current stock value.
http://www.xbrl.org/SpecRecommendations/
This allows (for instance) to export a trailbalance in a
general format than manny packages can read. Also E-billing
etc is put in to this world wide format. Still no need for me
to get this all in to osF today. Most of the stuff is just
when you publish your companies data and that usaly gets done
by the accounting office. They can take a trail balance
(agragated data) and put that in to there package of choice
that can produce this data. (it's a verry expensive packages
im sure ).
Thanks for the link, but I'm not sure it's that, they call the thing I was
saying here as "International Logistics Standards" and it has to do with how
you calculate the profits etc. If you use other system (as is still done
here by many companies) you get other data that may "hide" the real picture
of the economics of a certain business (see hype and bubbles). Eventually
all will have to switch and use the so-called international logistics
standards whichever those are (it's more of a certain way to do logistics,
not some thing necesserily related with software and informatics). However I
may have understood wrong all this discussion here and it might be related
more or less to XBRL too

----------------
George Birbilis (***@kagi.com)
Computer & Informatics Engineer
Microsoft MVP J# for 2004-2006
Borland "Spirit of Delphi"
++ QuickTime, Delphi, ActiveX, .NET components ++
http://www.kagi.com/birbilis
++ Robotics ++
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~Robotics
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~robgroup




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Pieter Valentijn
2006-12-12 18:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Yes This is cost of sales (when you sell something you dedut the cost
price from a balans account and put it on a loss account) This way you
know what you made proffit loss.
If you buy in goods you don't make a loss you merly exchange cash for
goods. When you sell the goods you deduct the cost price. If you do
traditional FIFO your cost price mite be to low (and your stock mite
look to high) using FIFO is mutch better so the cost of sales is the
ammount your last product purchases price was. So you proffit mite be
less but its more accurate.

In Holland and manny other countries you must select your way of sales
cost and stick with that. If you want to change you will have to inform
your tax athoitie first and ask permission.

Theses are all financials transactions inside The ledger so there also
part of the XBRL.
I gess XBRL is the global standard so im sure your country also used
that in declearing there standards if not they will probably change to
this soon.

Do you make finnacial software for your market?
osFinancials has a verry good basis for accounting. Im sure most of the
reports are just a mater of the right SQL and some transformation.



Met vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Valentijn

Delphidreams
http://www.delphidreams.nl



-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: George Birbilis [mailto:***@kagi.com]
Verzonden: maandag 11 december 2006 20:31
Aan: ***@miraclec.com
Onderwerp: RE: [lazarus] Gambas
Urgentie: Laag
Post by Pieter Valentijn
The other stuff you talk about is XBRL. And if if cource accounting
standaards for stock (FIFO LIFO). This is mainly about the current
stock value.
http://www.xbrl.org/SpecRecommendations/
This allows (for instance) to export a trailbalance in a general
format than manny packages can read. Also E-billing etc is put in to
this world wide format. Still no need for me to get this all in to osF
today. Most of the stuff is just when you publish your companies data
and that usaly gets done by the accounting office. They can take a
trail balance (agragated data) and put that in to there package of
choice that can produce this data. (it's a verry expensive packages
im sure ).
Thanks for the link, but I'm not sure it's that, they call the thing I
was saying here as "International Logistics Standards" and it has to do
with how you calculate the profits etc. If you use other system (as is
still done here by many companies) you get other data that may "hide"
the real picture of the economics of a certain business (see hype and
bubbles). Eventually all will have to switch and use the so-called
international logistics standards whichever those are (it's more of a
certain way to do logistics, not some thing necesserily related with
software and informatics). However I may have understood wrong all this
discussion here and it might be related more or less to XBRL too

----------------
George Birbilis (***@kagi.com)
Computer & Informatics Engineer
Microsoft MVP J# for 2004-2006
Borland "Spirit of Delphi"
++ QuickTime, Delphi, ActiveX, .NET components ++
http://www.kagi.com/birbilis
++ Robotics ++
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~Robotics
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~robgroup




_____

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avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software.



_________________________________________________________________
To unsubscribe: mail lazarus-***@miraclec.com with
"unsubscribe" as the Subject
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George Birbilis
2006-12-12 20:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pieter Valentijn
Do you make finnacial software for your market?
osFinancials has a verry good basis for accounting. Im sure
most of the reports are just a mater of the right SQL and
some transformation.
Not yet (you never know), but I'll keep osFinancials in mind

Have done mostly low level integration work for a risk analysis application
integration module with Greek stock exchange online system and some
consulting to them on distributed systems (DCOM, XML/SOAP etc.). It was for
Systemic Risk Management company in Greece (http://www.systemic-rm.com).
Looking at their website now they claim to be market leader in their field
in the mediterranean and middle east region (they already did work with
major players back then [it was arround 2000-2001 if I remember well])

cheers,
George

----------------
George Birbilis (***@kagi.com)
Computer & Informatics Engineer
Microsoft MVP J# for 2004-2006
Borland "Spirit of Delphi"
++ QuickTime, Delphi, ActiveX, .NET components ++
http://www.kagi.com/birbilis
++ Robotics ++
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~Robotics
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~robgroup




_____

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Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
2006-12-01 18:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Birbilis
(for example when you launch Lazarus [if you don't
tell it to open something], is there option to autostart with the File/New
dialog? [that should be the default option and have checkbox to not show
that at start again]).
I don´t particularly consider this an advantage. Do you really start a
new project everytime you open the IDE? The most common thing to do
when opening the IDE is to keep writing your previous project or open
another project.
Post by George Birbilis
What I mean is that Pascal is almost as easy as Basic to use
Now that´s language difference, not IDE difference.
Post by George Birbilis
so it's either that Lazarus is missing some IDE touches to make
it more appealing to newcomers, or that it needs more/better PR (e.g. try to
post nice screenshots of it to such net discussions that newbies [esp.
interested in university students] may come across while searching for what
IDE to use)
We have screenshots here: http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Screenshots

Please fell free to post a screenshot of Lazarus there, or improve
this screenshots wiki page, or do anything else you consider that will
improve Lazarus PR.
--
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
George Birbilis
2006-12-01 19:13:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pieter Valentijn
(for example when you launch Lazarus [if you don't tell it to open
something], is there option to autostart with the File/New dialog?
[that should be the default option and have checkbox to not
show that
at start again]).
I don´t particularly consider this an advantage. Do you
really start a new project everytime you open the IDE? The
most common thing to do when opening the IDE is to keep
writing your previous project or open another project.
Have you seen the new Turbo Delphi or VS.net for example? It has a start
page with common actions, info for the newcomer etc.
With VS.net I usually just skip that page (it also shows feed news, which is
nice) and with other s/w I check the option to now show startup hints or
such dialogs at start, but I do it after I get comfortable with the s/w. In
my opinion it's very good for newcomers and a small nuissance for the rest
(just the first time they run the IDE, they'll have to check some option to
never show that page or dialog again)

Btw, for starters could show the New dialog, but later on should do a more
task-oriented approach and show a page with common tasks, news feeds
(including mailing list posting headers maybe) etc. (and of course still
have option to not show that page at startup). Such page should be in a tab
instead of a modal dialog which is more intrusive. The page would contain a
"New..." option to show the File/New dialog among other common actions that
one might do when they start the IDE (could also show there the most recent
actions done first by the user after IDE startup)
Post by Pieter Valentijn
What I mean is that Pascal is almost as easy as Basic to use
Now that´s language difference, not IDE difference.
so it's either that Lazarus is missing some IDE touches to make it
more appealing to newcomers, or that it needs more/better
PR (e.g. try
to post nice screenshots of it to such net discussions that
newbies [esp.
interested in university students] may come across while
searching for
what IDE to use)
http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Screenshots
Please fell free to post a screenshot of Lazarus there, or
improve this screenshots wiki page, or do anything else you
consider that will improve Lazarus PR.
--
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
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Joost van der Sluis
2006-12-01 19:49:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Birbilis
Post by Pieter Valentijn
(for example when you launch Lazarus [if you don't tell it to open
something], is there option to autostart with the File/New dialog?
[that should be the default option and have checkbox to not
show that
at start again]).
I don´t particularly consider this an advantage. Do you
really start a new project everytime you open the IDE? The
most common thing to do when opening the IDE is to keep
writing your previous project or open another project.
Have you seen the new Turbo Delphi or VS.net for example? It has a start
page with common actions, info for the newcomer etc.
As it is now, a newcomer can start to use the IDE immediately, since the
IDE creates a new project for him by default!

Start the ide, and then choose run. That'll work. Easier than that is
impossible. If he wants to do more, he's more advanced, and won't have
any troubles in finding the 'new project' option in the menu.

I aggree that we should make things as easy as possible, but out
audience are developers, not first-time-computer-users.

btw: remove you're 'reply to', please. else the consequence will be that
I won't answer your mails anymore.
George Birbilis
2006-12-07 21:06:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joost van der Sluis
As it is now, a newcomer can start to use the IDE
immediately, since the IDE creates a new project for him by default!
Ahh? I mean select WHAT project to make, not make some blank project with
one form (old Delphi style). Can already have that made, or even better not
make it at all (I hate it with Delphi 7 that I have to close the form it
makes after I start the IDE - sometimes I just want to make a console
project, so I view the project source and add {$APPTYPE CONSOLE} on top, but
have to answer the silly question on whether I want to save the form, plus
edit the project source to remove the form code [if I do File/New console
project I answer 2 silly questions, to save the form and the project if I
remember well what Delphi7 did])
Post by Joost van der Sluis
Start the ide, and then choose run. That'll work. Easier than
that is impossible. If he wants to do more, he's more
advanced, and won't have any troubles in finding the 'new
project' option in the menu.
Time is money, also people get tired after a while repeating such things -
user friendly GUIs are task-oriented and also personalized (both
auto-adapting showing recent items etc. and configurable in an easy way
[drag-drop / or by example] by the user)
Post by Joost van der Sluis
I aggree that we should make things as easy as possible, but
out audience are developers, not first-time-computer-users.
Our audience should also be new developers. The IDE / language they choose
first to work will sometimes become their loved one if it doesn't scare them
from the beginning
Post by Joost van der Sluis
btw: remove you're 'reply to', please. else the consequence
will be that I won't answer your mails anymore.
I'm afraid I can't do it. I send e-mails from another server and want to
receive them from another one (it's an issue with my connection)

----------------
George Birbilis (***@kagi.com)
Computer & Informatics Engineer
Microsoft MVP J# for 2004-2006
Borland "Spirit of Delphi"
++ QuickTime, Delphi, ActiveX, .NET components ++
http://www.kagi.com/birbilis
++ Robotics ++
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~Robotics
http://www.mech.upatras.gr/~robgroup




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Micha Nelissen
2006-12-07 21:17:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Birbilis
Post by Joost van der Sluis
btw: remove you're 'reply to', please. else the consequence
will be that I won't answer your mails anymore.
I'm afraid I can't do it. I send e-mails from another server and want to
receive them from another one (it's an issue with my connection)
Well, your reply-to address is the same as your from address, so it
wouldn't make a difference with respect to where you read/receive/send
your mail.

Micha
Vincent Snijders
2006-12-07 21:26:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Birbilis
Post by Joost van der Sluis
btw: remove you're 'reply to', please. else the consequence
will be that I won't answer your mails anymore.
I'm afraid I can't do it. I send e-mails from another server and want to
receive them from another one (it's an issue with my connection)
Well, fix it then.

And don't let the replies bounce with spamcop message.

Vincent
George Birbilis
2006-12-08 09:12:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by George Birbilis
Post by George Birbilis
I'm afraid I can't do it. I send e-mails from another
server and want
Post by George Birbilis
to receive them from another one (it's an issue with my connection)
Well, fix it then.
There's no workarround I'm afraid other than to pay for some other mail
provider which I don't want to do at the moment
Post by George Birbilis
And don't let the replies bounce with spamcop message.
Can you fwd me such a message (private) to see?

Thanks,
George





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